Page 1 of 15 
 
Washington Women’s Heritage Project records, 1900-2000 
University of Washington Libraries Special Collections 
Maggie Daniels Barr 
1980 
Cassette 1, Side 2 
 
Winona Weber  00:01 
I don't blame him. I just turned on the play instead of both buttons.  
 
Maggie Barr  00:05 
Yeah. And anyway, my son and I-- my son [inaudible]. He lives over there in [inaudible]. One 
night, he said-- like a voice told him, Get in the house, right now. Get in the house. Don't turn the 
lights on. So, I don't know what that was, but oh, it scared him so.  
 
Winona Weber  00:09 
Oh, it would me too. 
 
Maggie Barr  00:43 
He says, I got in the house, I didn't hesitate.  
 
Winona Weber  00:43 
At all.  
 
Maggie Barr  00:50 
So there-- I think they still live there on this-- you know, you go down here, you turn to the right 
at the, not the first crossroad, not the first road to the right, because that's the judge's. You go 
down to the next and it's a crossroad. And you turn to the right and go down there, and there's a 
house in the corner, and you go on down, and you go down the hill, and right on that side there's 
a-- right past where Clarence is living, there's a big canyon, and that's where they lived. And I 
don't know if they still live there or not, but these white boys was going to go down there and 
see. And there was nothing in there, nothing in there. They left, and they had brush-- Whether 
they left or just went for a while, but they bothered his daughter, daughter-in-law. She wouldn't 
live there. She said she's going back home, back to her brothers'. 
 
Winona Weber  02:06 
Yeah, we-- I was, I was brought up with the Stick Indians. 
 
Maggie Barr  02:10 
You was. You know what they are then. Do they make chills go up and down your spine?  
 
Page 2 of 15 
 
Winona Weber  02:18 
When I hear them, it does [laughs]. They really do. 
 
Maggie Barr  02:23 
Yeah, but they won't hurt you. 
 
Winona Weber  02:25 
No, but they sure are weird sounding sometimes. 
 
Maggie Barr  02:28 
Oh, I know. These-- there are lots here. 
 
Winona Weber  02:32 
I think-- I think just, just so much, so many people. 
 
Maggie Barr  02:36 
People living here now. Yeah, well, it's even houses across [?Dana?], see, that belonged to this 
party, but he sold it so he could have money. But we own-- we own, still, 40 acres back of that, 
and I give it to my son, 8 acres. I own my share. There's still Indian land, but he owns-- I gave it 
to him because he'd give me all his money when he was in the war and we had that fire. All the 
money he earned, that is what I call blood money. War. I don't actually know how many 
hundreds he sent home? For the house, for the car, [inaudible]. But we happen to have an old one 
by 12 [?shack across?] [inaudible], and we moved in that. And you know the Red Cross? I used 
to help the Red Cross when I worked in on the shipyard. Every month [inaudible] , I'd give so 
much to the Red Cross. And they come up here and they find out that I had another old house 
over there. Everything burnt down to the ground they managed to [inaudible]. The Red Cross 
from Auburn said we didn't need anymore.  
 
Winona Weber  04:06 
Where did you work in the shipyard?  
 
Maggie Barr  04:09 
Tacoma. [?Top?] Pacific. 
 
Winona Weber  04:11 
Really? When, when did you work there?  
 
Maggie Barr  04:14 
Must've been in '44?  
 
Winona Weber  04:16 
World War Two. 
 
Maggie Barr  04:17 
Yeah, World War Two.  
 
Page 3 of 15 
 
Winona Weber  04:18 
What did you do?  
 
Maggie Barr  04:19 
Oh, I-- you know, they have them on the boats. They got them, what they call tanks? Square? 
That's what I worked in. Didn't need no broom. All I needed was a little whispering, easy job. 
But then all the workers, the welders and, what else are they called? Oh, there's enough. They 
were all working in that same place where we was, and they'd drop steel, and that they'd holler at 
us and we'd-- 
 
Winona Weber  04:19 
--jump out of the way. 
 
Maggie Barr  04:34 
Jump out of the way. And we'd pick up that same steel, tie it on rope, and somebody blew that on 
deck. And they'd pull it up.  
 
Winona Weber  05:01 
Oh, boy.  
 
Maggie Barr  05:02 
But it was fun for me. It wasn't work. And, you know, they kept me after they let everybody else 
go, the women, all go. A few of them stayed. And they kept me because I-- they said I was a 
good worker, and so they kept me, but I didn't like it, because a different ship would in. I didn't 
like it, it wasn't the same. And so I thought, Oh, let's see this. I don't need money that much, so I 
quit. I worked several other years. Yeah, that's what I'm drawing, Social Security.  
 
Winona Weber  05:02 
Oh, I see.  
 
Maggie Barr  05:32 
And I enjoyed it. And then they had what they call a finishing dock, but this is where they first 
built the boats. What I worked on, and I worked in one of those tanks. And I just like my own 
boss. He'd never a boss running around telling me to sweep. I didn't like that, sweeping on the 
top deck. You'd have to sweep. You know [inaudible]. It was easy. I guess you could stand 
around. I don't like to stand around. If I'm going to work, I want to work. That way, I'm at tank. 
I'm a working [inaudible].  
 
Winona Weber  06:24 
Yeah, you said you're-- you said you had three sons in World War Two. How many-- did you 
have any brothers in World War One?  
 
Maggie Barr  06:38 
No, no. No, my brothers all died before. Before World War One. and I remember two brothers, 
no, three brothers. I don't think I have four brothers. 
 
Page 4 of 15 
 
Winona Weber  07:05 
You had five brothers altogether.  
 
Maggie Barr  07:07 
Yeah, I can't remember who they are, even, I'm getting so old. No good to ask questions. 
 
Winona Weber  07:13 
Well, you said that, well, your brother Leo is still living, 
 
Maggie Barr  07:18 
Yeah, he's the only one living. See, the rest of them all died. One married a Oregon woman, and 
they had one child, and my mother raised that child. I'm forgetting how old when he died. My 
brother Sam died not too long ago. He owned this property next door. He owned that-- the 
corner, as you go towards the roof, right on the corner, here. Well, his daughter lives there now, 
but it belongs to his youngest daughter when she married, and she don't live around here. She's 
back East. 
 
Winona Weber  08:01 
So Leo and-- Leo and Sammy were too young for World War One?  
 
Maggie Barr  08:04 
No, they didn't-- let me see. Let me see who was World War One. My brothers ain't-- oh, wait a 
minute. Wait a minute. I'm all [?balled?] up here. 
 
Winona Weber  08:26 
I thought maybe your older brothers, because you were about 15 or so when the World War One 
broke out. 
 
Maggie Barr  08:34 
Well, I'm trying to see. 
 
Winona Weber  08:44 
Were your brothers older than you?  
 
Maggie Barr  08:46 
Yeah.  
 
Winona Weber  08:47 
That's why I thought maybe, you know, then they had. 
 
Maggie Barr  08:52 
I remember though, my sons were serving in World War Two.  
 
Winona Weber  08:56 
Yeah. Yeah, you told me about-- you lost your one son in Normandy, 
 
Page 5 of 15 
 
Maggie Barr  09:02 
Normandy. He's Chet, the oldest one. Oh, everybody had been miserable. Different personality 
altogether. He was different. He joined the paratroopers. He was old, but he bought-- joined it 
anyway. He didn't have to go. He didn't have to be a soldier. He used to all-- live in Port 
Angeles, and he joined. You've got Chet right here. And there's Clarence here. He was in World 
War Two. He was a tank striper. [Inaudible.] If they wanted volunteers, he'd be the first one. 
Three of them. It was during the war, you know, but he never got a scratch. I always say our 
prayers [inaudible]. But my son-in-law was there, and for a long time, he'd be driving during the 
day, he'd be just sneaking after he come home. That's my daughter, Marge, her husband. 
[Inaudible.] 
 
Maggie Barr  10:23 
After my oldest son died. And Amos was in, one of my sons, he was in the Philippines. And then 
Clarence, he was in Normandy Beach, or whatever you call it.  
 
Winona Weber  10:23 
Europe. 
 
Maggie Barr  10:23 
In Europe, yeah. There was Chet, Clarence, and Amos. Three of them. And I didn't think that 
was fair to take three from one family.  
 
Winona Weber  10:32 
After your oldest son died? 
 
Winona Weber  10:38 
No, I don't think so either. 
 
Maggie Barr  11:09 
But they never had no hard [inaudible], especially to Indian, the more Indian were killed. But I 
get insurance, and I get pension. I call it blood money. And I get my social security. So I'm well. 
You know, my son, when he first got to shake we had this Indian powwow. You just eat and-- at 
little tables, eat. Says for us to go around the table, just like the regular shake. Just-- I can't 
remember what [inaudible]. So we did, and then told him. And he said, You know Mom, he said, 
I'll take good care. You don't have to worry. [Inaudible.] 
 
Winona Weber  12:16 
Have you been a shaker for a long time? 
 
Maggie Barr  12:19 
I was a shaker. I didn't mean to be, but I didn't join. Isn't that funny? My son, George-- I don't 
know if you've seen him? He's dark. He's in a kind of big-- George. He joined. He didn't join. His 
dad and-- his dad and his sister. Who's this? 
 
Winona Weber  12:48 
I don't know. What's your name? 
Page 6 of 15 
 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  12:56 
I'm Margie. 
 
Winona Weber  13:01 
Margie? 
 
Maggie Barr  13:02 
Oh, Margie. My daughter, Marge. You tell her your name. 
 
Winona Weber  13:07 
Winona.  
 
Maggie Barr  13:09 
Interviewing me.  
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  13:11 
Well, I'm just gonna sit and listen, Mama. I'm just going to listen.  
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  13:15 
No, even that-- even the cattle [inaudible] wake up at night, you can hear them walking out there. 
Was just-- maybe more than one. Six senses of self preservation. [Inaudible] Still within him yet. 
[Inaudible.] 
 
Maggie Barr  13:15 
Well, you know more than I do. That's the one that lives in Lummi. That's the one I was just 
talking about, her husband. Just talking about your husband, how he, after the war, he used to 
sneak in the car? During the day, catch himself, you know? So used to sneaking at night, you 
know. And he was sneaking, he told us about it, but we didn't laugh, because it wasn't funny. 
 
Winona Weber  13:35 
You live at Lummi? 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  13:40 
Uh huh. 
 
Maggie Barr  14:15 
She lives right by the mouth of the, what do you call it? 
 
Maggie Barr  14:19 
Nooksack River. She lives right at the mouth, and I worried about it when that flooded and the 
wondering if they made it out. No way to call her. 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  14:19 
Nooksack. 
 
Page 7 of 15 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  14:29 
We were at home. They was-- they were calling. Everyone was calling and calling and we went 
home and moved to my [inaudible]. Got out in 45 minutes, my husband and I were working. 
[Inaudible.] We didn't want to be stuck [inaudible]. No one knew her phone number, [inaudible]. 
We went down to her place. I didn't think they'd call. So we, we was frantically trying trying to 
call and everything [inaudible]. 
 
Winona Weber  14:30 
Yeah. 
 
Maggie Barr  15:39 
Yeah, you know, I was just telling her, I don't believe anybody, because somebody said you guys 
was coming and Eleanor was supposed to come this weekend. And I said, you know, I never 
believe it till I see it. Now I see it, see she come up one.  Eleanor was supposed to come too. My 
other daughter. They live all over. One lives in Tacoma. One lives up-- what do you call that 
place up there where Eleanor lives? 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  16:08 
 Yelm. 
 
Maggie Barr  16:09 
Yelm. That's the four-- four letter town, I was trying to-- 
 
Winona Weber  16:13 
-- Yeah [ laughs] that's got four letters and it's by Roy. What's your real name? 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  16:25 
Marguerite. 
 
Winona Weber  16:25 
Marguerite. You know I wanted to ask you about?  
 
Maggie Barr  16:36 
Yeah? 
 
Winona Weber  16:37 
Do you remember when Indians were made US citizens in 1924? 
 
Maggie Barr  16:47 
I think I do remember that. 
 
Winona Weber  16:50 
What did you think about that when you heard that? 
 
Maggie Barr  16:53 
I didn't think much of it, because we're still under the government [laughs].  
Page 8 of 15 
 
 
Winona Weber  16:57 
Oh, yeah, I know.  
 
Maggie Barr  16:58 
You got it? We might be citizens, but we're still under the government. They get paid the big 
money, you know, to take care of us. We can starve to death there, they don't care. They took all 
the fish out of the river here. We ain't got no fishing [inaudible], cleaned it out. That was crazy. 
Well, they didn't know any better, and they're supposed to be-- what they call it ecology, what 
they call them? 
 
Winona Weber  17:35 
Experts. 
 
Maggie Barr  17:36 
Yeah, lot of them don't know what they doing. 
 
Winona Weber  17:43 
What did you do during World War Two? 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  17:43 
Even though we were made citizens, like you were saying, we weren't recognized as citizens, 
because during World War Two, we-- when we filled out our applications and everything, we 
had to write on our applications, because we were Indians, that we were wards of the 
government. So even through World War Two, we weren't recognized as citizens of the United 
States. We were still considered wards of the government. When they made us citizens, they still 
didn't recognize us as citizens, still recognized as wards to the government during World War 
Two. 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  17:51 
Oh, I looked at Boeings for a while. [Inaudible]. 
 
Winona Weber  17:55 
How old were you during World War Two? You were old enough to [inaudible] 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  18:42 
Yeah, exactly. 
 
Maggie Barr  18:53 
Didn't Ethel work there too? 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  18:54 
Yes, Ethel worked there too.  
 
Maggie Barr  18:57 
Ethel worked there too, at that shipyard.  
Page 9 of 15 
 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  19:00 
Soon as the war ended then, we had to be-- we were compelled to join a union, but soon as 
finally-- compelled to join a union, we had sign that you gave up all our rights. As soon as the 
crisis was over, the women lost their rights, and the rights of the union, and everything else, even 
though all those benefits, and everything we paid in buisness benefits, [inaudible]. 40 hours, 57 
dollars. 
 
Maggie Barr  19:40 
Give us something to do, get-- we've been going crazy. Yeah. 
 
Maggie Barr  19:44 
Oh, right. 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  19:44 
Home pay. 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  20:03 
[Inaudible.] 
 
Winona Weber  20:06 
I'm gonna find more women to interview yet.  
 
Maggie Barr  20:09 
You are. You can't get much out of me because I'm just a bitch.  
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  20:13 
Oh, mama knows a lot-- 
 
Winona Weber  20:15 
-- I've gotten quite a bit actually. 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  20:19 
Remembers a lot, and since your [inaudible]. 
 
Maggie Barr  20:25 
And you get this old, you forget. 
 
Winona Weber  20:27 
Oh yeah. Well, I've managed to lose two pens tonight. I lost-- 
 
Maggie Barr  20:34 
--her mind ain't in it [laughs]. 
 
Winona Weber  20:36 
Page 10 of 15 
 
I lost one between Bernice's and here, because I interviewed her earlier today. And then, when I 
was sitting here, I lost another one. Just sitting here. Then Clarence gave me one. 
 
Maggie Barr  20:46 
[Inaudible]. 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  20:48 
So I'm not, I'm not doing too many. 
 
Maggie Barr  20:52 
Well, I don't know what else you could tell me. And Marge could tell you just about as much as I 
can.  
 
Winona Weber  20:57 
Well, um, I'd like to know a little more about your mother if you know anything. Um, did you 
say your mother didn't do basketry?  
 
Maggie Barr  21:09 
No, she didn't, but she-- she done like me. She done the knitting.  
 
Winona Weber  21:18 
Did she do the carding and spinning too? Is that where you learned? Did you learn-- 
 
Maggie Barr  21:23 
Yeah, that's where I learned.  
 
Winona Weber  21:24 
How old were you when you started doing that? 
 
Maggie Barr  21:26 
I don't remember. 
 
Winona Weber  21:27 
Were you a little girl, or were you a, you know, a teenager?  
 
Maggie Barr  21:35 
Well, I don't remember. I know I was single. So, I must've been a teenager.  
 
Winona Weber  21:46 
Where was your mother from? Can't find her. Did you know your--  Did you know your 
grandmother, Mary [inaudible], very well? 
 
Maggie Barr  21:58 
I knew her well. She was my favorite grandmother. 
 
Winona Weber  22:02 
Page 11 of 15 
 
Did you get to spend a lot of time with her when you were growing up?  
 
Maggie Barr  22:04 
Oh, you bet your life. If, if she wasn't with me walking across there, she was so old, and I gave 
her a brand new shawl. It had to be any [?meaning line?] between my mother and her, and I gave 
it to my grandmother. And I often regret it. I was wishing I had two, because, kind of-- I kind of 
think I hurt my mom, you know, and what did she do? This was her home back here. See, there 
was a house back here, and always had fences, and she walked to the fences and her shawl would 
get caught. She didn't know it and she tear it and keep going. She was that old. She must have 
been over a hundred when she died. Yeah. Gosh, and I used to live over-- you go down the 
highway here, and we used to have an old house there, on that side. I think the highway went 
through it. I don't know, but anyway, no, it's the same old house. 
 
Winona Weber  23:13 
Did she live real close to you?  
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  23:18 
[Inaudible.] 
 
Winona Weber  23:19 
Okay, that's-- I didn't get that. 
 
Maggie Barr  23:23 
Yeah. Oh, my grandmother? 
 
Winona Weber  23:25 
Yeah. 
 
Maggie Barr  23:26 
Yeah, she lived here.  
 
Winona Weber  23:27 
Okay, that's-- 
 
Maggie Barr  23:28 
-- And I lived over here, down the highway, where that crossroad is. 
 
Winona Weber  23:32 
Yeah. You were telling me about that. 
 
Maggie Barr  23:33 
Yeah, but they just put stuff over and made it look new. It's made out of one by 12, and kitchen 
was lean-to. And I don't know if the lean-to is still on there or not, is it? Oh, it burnt down one 
time. It burnt, and they got a new house. And yeah. That darn fly. 
 
Winona Weber  23:52 
Page 12 of 15 
 
Yeah, it's been flying around here for a while. 
 
Maggie Barr  24:00 
It's come in from out there. Yeah, I learned to spin, and my mother learned to card, hand card.  
 
Winona Weber  24:13 
Yeah, you were telling me about that hand carding. 
 
Maggie Barr  24:16 
Yeah, and I learned to knit, oh, I made one of my socks and I made the heel inside out.  
 
Winona Weber  24:23 
[Laughs] Oh no. 
 
Maggie Barr  24:26 
But you see, they had what they call a [?roachdale?] store, I don't know if you know or use it. Up 
here, in Enumclaw? And they had dry goods, and they had food also, groceries. So my mother 
knit a whole bunch of socks. She didn't knit only a dozen. She'd knit a whole-- first she'd make 
the tops. You know, the top-- 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  24:49 
--[Inaudible].  
 
Maggie Barr  24:49 
[Inaudible] we call it. I can't see what was happening. Well, I guess I ain't got none here. But you 
just make about that long. You know, she'd make a whole bunch and tie them together, put it in a 
basket. Then she'd pick up her knitting and start. She'd spin all her wool, all of it. And then she'd 
start knitting. I don't know about that [Inaudible]? 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  25:14 
No, we don't have [inaudible].  
 
Maggie Barr  25:15 
No, I think I made a pair of socks for somebody.  
 
Winona Weber  25:27 
Oh, yeah. 
 
Maggie Barr  25:27 
But I hated to purl. 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  25:30 
What're you working on mom? 
 
Maggie Barr  25:31 
Huh? 
Page 13 of 15 
 
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  25:32 
What're you working on? 
 
Maggie Barr  25:33 
I was gonna start-- I got two more caps to make. Oh, Marge for you. Here, I was gonna make 
you spin some black, but you can't see it either. Can you? the black is over there. It's in a box. I 
can't-- Marge, I can't see it even I put the blue thing down there. And I just still got to judge, and 
I got some of it so skinny, just like thread, some of what is big. I know I can't spin it. I tried. I 
still got some on there. Look at it, Marge, how it looks there.  
 
Winona Weber  26:12 
Thick and thin.  
 
Maggie Barr  26:13 
Yeah, and the poor lighting in here, or else just me going blind. I got some of it pulled on top. 
Are you through interview? 
 
Winona Weber  26:26 
We'll be done in just a few minutes. You were being taped. I might have to have you fill out a 
release form too. 
 
Maggie Barr  26:34 
Well. She, she knows about as much as I do. She knows more. She can remember. 
 
Winona Weber  26:42 
When-- let's see, we were talking about your mother and grandmother, your grandmother was the 
one from Cowlitz, isn't that right?  
 
Maggie Barr  26:51 
That's right.  
 
Winona Weber  26:53 
And she moved here with Francis Ross. Did they move?  
 
Maggie Barr  26:57 
No.  
 
Winona Weber  26:58 
That's kind of the feeling I got before. 
 
Maggie Barr  26:59 
That-- now let's see, she, gosh, let's see. She didn't live here with Francis Ross. That was my dad-
- my mother's dad. They lived over towards, what'd they call that place? Well, they must have 
lived in Cowlitz, because she was married to a Ross. No, Nisqually.  
 
Page 14 of 15 
 
Winona Weber  27:00 
Oh, I see.  
 
Maggie Barr  27:11 
He's from Nisqually, the Rosses.  
 
Winona Weber  27:37 
Oh, that's right, he is-- 
 
Maggie Barr  27:39 
A Nisqually. He's a half-breed. 
 
Winona Weber  27:53 
In those days, did, when a woman got married, did she go and live with the husband's family?  
 
Maggie Barr  28:02 
Gosh, I bet you're right.  
 
Winona Weber  28:04 
Is that how she would have ended up in Nisqually?  
 
Maggie Barr  28:11 
Well, that's where he was from.  
 
Winona Weber  28:13 
Yeah, that's why I was thinking, you know, they got married, she might-- 
 
Maggie Barr  28:17 
Yeah, yeah, and my mother, I really don't remember how old my mother was, but she's light 
complexioned, looked like Ethel, because she was a breed. See, he was half-breed. Mr. Ross was. 
I met some of my relations afterwards, but they were just not like my relations. I just met them 
once.  
 
Winona Weber  28:43 
Didn't know them very well. 
 
Maggie Barr  28:44 
Didn't know them very well, and I never got very close to them. I met some of them. Most of 
them are breeds. One had an office in Tacoma, studying. I don't know whether he was a lawyer 
or what he was? We got acquainted with them, but then I didn't go to see them afterwards, 
because they just like not my relatives.  
 
Winona Weber  29:09 
Yeah, [inaudible] relatives that are working in law. 
 
Maggie Barr  29:27 
Page 15 of 15 
 
And my dad, I never knew his family, because they were dead, died before. I think, the way I 
look at it, he lived in Seattle with some relatives of ours. You know, they call him Chief Seattle. 
He lived in Seattle with him and his daughter, Princess, what is her name, Eth--Marge?  
 
Marguerite Elizabeth Courville  29:55 
Angeline?  
 
Maggie Barr  29:57 
Yeah, Princess Angeline. He lived with them when he was just a young boy, so I think his 
parents died. My dad wasn't a talkative person.  
 
Winona Weber  30:07 
Oh, I see.  
 
Maggie Barr  30:08 
Never talked about his parents, because I don't think he remembered them, because he was just a 
little boy when he lived with them people in Seattle. 
 
Winona Weber  30:17 
Was he related? Was he related to Seattle? 
 
Maggie Barr  30:20 
To Chief Seattle and Princess Angeline, yeah, they were related to them. They stayed with him. 
They kept him. They must have raised him. 
 
Winona Weber  30:37 
This Snohomish Joe, how well did you know him? 
 
Maggie Barr  30:42 
Real well. He was a wonderful person. Very nice person. He owned this land here, where I'm on 
now. 56 acres. And then they owned a cross over there, like I told you. Some Porter bought it. 
Alec Porter, he was a great one to buy from the Indians, and then he'd turn around sell it. He 
bought this [inaudible] here too. But now he's dead.  
 
Winona Weber  31:17 
Was Snohomish Joe his real name? Or was that just-- 
 
Maggie Barr  31:20 
Joe Snohomish, or Snohomish Joe. Either way, that's the old Indian way. Joe Snohomish or 
Snohomish Joe. And some of them figures you might call him Snohomish Joe-- 
 